Communities

Writing
Writing
Codidact Meta
Codidact Meta
The Great Outdoors
The Great Outdoors
Photography & Video
Photography & Video
Scientific Speculation
Scientific Speculation
Cooking
Cooking
Electrical Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Judaism
Judaism
Languages & Linguistics
Languages & Linguistics
Software Development
Software Development
Mathematics
Mathematics
Christianity
Christianity
Code Golf
Code Golf
Music
Music
Physics
Physics
Linux Systems
Linux Systems
Power Users
Power Users
Tabletop RPGs
Tabletop RPGs
Community Proposals
Community Proposals
tag:snake search within a tag
answers:0 unanswered questions
user:xxxx search by author id
score:0.5 posts with 0.5+ score
"snake oil" exact phrase
votes:4 posts with 4+ votes
created:<1w created < 1 week ago
post_type:xxxx type of post
Search help
Notifications
Mark all as read See all your notifications »
Q&A

Post History

71%
+3 −0
Q&A Speed of EM waves from the point of view of an electrical engineer

A loss-less coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce $\epsilon$ and $\mu$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance ...

posted 11mo ago by Andy aka‭  ·  edited 11mo ago by Andy aka‭

Answer
#15: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-25T11:59:59Z (11 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance must also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of the telegrapher's equations by looking at a short piece of **loss-less** cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0\hspace{1cm} = \hspace{1cm}sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}\hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2\hspace{1cm} =\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 \hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • When s, L and C are small, we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A general bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is of interest: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • Here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can simplify: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance must also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of the telegrapher's equations by looking at a short piece of **loss-less** cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0\hspace{1cm} = \hspace{1cm}sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}\hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2\hspace{1cm} =\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 \hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • When s, L and C are small, we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A general bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is of interest: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • Here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Because 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance are modelled, the equivalent velocity of propagation is 200 million metres per second (the inverse of the time lag).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can simplify: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#14: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-25T11:20:54Z (11 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance must also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of the telegrapher's equations by looking at a short piece of **loss-less** cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0\hspace{1cm} = \hspace{1cm}sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}\hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2\hspace{1cm} =\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 \hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • When s, L and C are small, we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A general bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is of interest: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • Here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can simplify: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#13: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T18:16:33Z (11 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#12: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T15:36:31Z (11 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#11: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T11:42:54Z (11 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#10: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T11:42:14Z (11 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, the associated formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#9: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T20:17:34Z (11 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, the associated formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#8: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T18:01:16Z (11 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#7: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T14:39:31Z (11 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly simple math: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#6: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T12:22:55Z (11 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly trivial math: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly simple math: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#5: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T10:50:43Z (11 months ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point, I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly trivial math: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#4: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T13:47:50Z (11 months ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point, I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#3: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T13:30:24Z (11 months ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#2: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T12:48:37Z (11 months ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies. I'm interested in phase shift because that is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#1: Initial revision by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T12:43:14Z (11 months ago)
I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)

$$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$

$$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$

$$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$

$$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$

$$$$

When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -

$$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$

And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).

$$$$

At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)

I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies. I'm interested in phase shift because that is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.

$$$$

Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)

And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)

 - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg; 
 - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.

 - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns

Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.

A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -

$$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$

Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:

 - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
 - The denominator equals 1

$$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$

But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)

And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -

$$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$

If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -

$$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$

And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -

$$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$

Nearly there! 

$$$$

Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -

$$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$

Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)

$$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$

Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)

$$$$

If we multiply L and C we get  \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$  hence,

$$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$