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Q&A Speed of EM waves from the point of view of an electrical engineer

A loss-less coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce $\epsilon$ and $\mu$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance ...

posted 1y ago by Andy aka‭  ·  edited 12mo ago by Andy aka‭

Answer
#15: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-25T11:59:59Z (12 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance must also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of the telegrapher's equations by looking at a short piece of **loss-less** cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0\hspace{1cm} = \hspace{1cm}sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}\hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2\hspace{1cm} =\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 \hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • When s, L and C are small, we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A general bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is of interest: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • Here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can simplify: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance must also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of the telegrapher's equations by looking at a short piece of **loss-less** cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0\hspace{1cm} = \hspace{1cm}sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}\hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2\hspace{1cm} =\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 \hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • When s, L and C are small, we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A general bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is of interest: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • Here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Because 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance are modelled, the equivalent velocity of propagation is 200 million metres per second (the inverse of the time lag).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can simplify: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#14: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-25T11:20:54Z (12 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance must also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of the telegrapher's equations by looking at a short piece of **loss-less** cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0\hspace{1cm} = \hspace{1cm}sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}\hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2\hspace{1cm} =\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 \hspace{1cm}=\hspace{1cm} sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • When s, L and C are small, we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A general bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is of interest: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • Here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can simplify: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#13: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T18:16:33Z (12 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#12: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T15:36:31Z (12 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when loaded with the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • A bode plot using lumped-values for L and C (per metre) is revealing: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#11: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T11:42:54Z (12 months ago)
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#10: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-24T11:42:14Z (12 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, the associated formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • A **loss-less** coaxial cable has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, their associated formulas introduce \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to home-in on the velocity of propagation, the characteristic impedance should also be determined. We can avoid the complexity of using the telegrapher's equations by analysing a short section of loss-less cable in the frequency domain: -
  • <sub>$$$$</sub>
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/zvuqqige55am9dtiskoyykko6f3d)
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are small values we can ignore the \$s^2LCZ_0\$ term, hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#9: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T20:17:34Z (12 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, the associated formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#8: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T18:01:16Z (12 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Having \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to find the output phase lag and, with a little more manipulation, the time delay for 1 metre of cable: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$).
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency up to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}} = \omega\sqrt{LC}$$
  • <sub>Anyone studying telegrapher's equations will recognize this as the imaginary part of the propagation constant.$$$$</sub>
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#7: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T14:39:31Z (12 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly simple math: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. But, to uncover the velocity of propagation, the equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance also needs to be found: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of particular interest is the phase lag at low to medium frequencies because of its equivalence to time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#6: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T12:22:55Z (12 months ago)
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly trivial math: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and, those formulas introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly simple math: -
  • $$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/9b0rnx1gux6ixx9yih13bf2lcvqc)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#5: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-23T10:50:43Z (almost 1 year ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point, I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • Consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable; it has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. The equivalent circuit's characteristic impedance is found using fairly trivial math: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • Now we have \$Z_0\$, we can analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase lag of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • Of interest is the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay (when we use the correct value for \$Z_0\$). We deliberately ignore the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area, the phase shift is not relevant.
  • $$$$
  • Simulation using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial-cable lumped-values for L and C (per metre): -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase lag is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then, because we are making \$\omega\$ a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications: -
  • - The arctan of a small number **is** the small number because
  • $$\arctan(x) = x - \frac{x^3}{3} + \frac{x^5}{5} - ...$$
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But, we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • Dividing the phase lag by \$\omega\$ gives us the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (for a 1 metre length of cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#4: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T13:47:50Z (almost 1 year ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point, I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ewmdxkhhtczk5szrntfpup4uft1p)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • $$$$
  • A simulator is great as a demonstrator but, a phase angle formula is needed so that we know what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#3: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T13:30:24Z (almost 1 year ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance (based on the equivalent circuit of coaxial cable): -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would analyse the equivalent circuit's transfer function. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input for a 1 metre section: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in that area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#2: Post edited by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T12:48:37Z (almost 1 year ago)
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies. I'm interested in phase shift because that is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
  • I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)
  • $$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$
  • $$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$
  • $$$$
  • When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -
  • $$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$
  • And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).
  • $$$$
  • At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)
  • I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies because it is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.
  • $$$$
  • Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)
  • And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)
  • - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg;
  • - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.
  • - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns
  • Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.
  • A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$
  • Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:
  • - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
  • - The denominator equals 1
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -
  • ![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)
  • And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -
  • $$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$
  • If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -
  • $$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$
  • And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$
  • Nearly there!
  • $$$$
  • Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -
  • $$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$
  • Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)
  • $$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$
  • Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)
  • $$$$
  • If we multiply L and C we get \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$ hence,
  • $$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$
#1: Initial revision by user avatar Andy aka‭ · 2023-12-22T12:43:14Z (almost 1 year ago)
I'd consider a **loss-less** coaxial cable. It has inductance and capacitance per unit length that are easily derivable and introduce the terms \$\epsilon\$ and \$\mu\$. Then, I'd derive the characteristic impedance of the cable based on the values of inductance and capacitance per metre: -$$$$

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/ah7sp9a51vxc5wxvrr7pcwufn8qi)

$$Z_{IN} = Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{\frac{1}{sC}\cdot Z_0}{\frac{1}{sC} + Z_0}$$

$$Z_0 = sL + \dfrac{Z_0}{1 + sCZ_0}$$

$$Z_0 + sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0 + Z_0$$

$$sCZ_0^2 = sL + s^2LCZ_0$$

$$$$

When s, L and C are very small values we can say that \$s^2LC\$ becomes zero hence: -

$$sCZ_0^2 = sL$$

And, \$\hspace{7cm}Z_0 = \sqrt{\dfrac{L}{C}}\hspace{1cm}\$ (a well known formula).

$$$$

At this point I would consider analysing the circuit above using standard transfer function analysis. This allows us to derive the phase response of the output compared to the input: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/f5kgycobtrxtkzmwzmn059gablpj)

I am interested in the phase shift at low to medium frequencies. I'm interested in phase shift because that is equivalent to a time delay. I want the analysis to deliberately stay away from the natural resonant frequency of the circuit because, in this area the phase shift rapidly changes.

$$$$

Here is a simulation of the circuit using typical 50 &ohm; coaxial cable lumped values for L and C: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/oi9ql7ohs1uqoumw045cbjoyzyli)

And, here's a close-up of the phase response plotted linearly against frequency from DC to 1 MHz: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/mdv9xbskrx38tvx7psryjhd5y0j8)

 - At 1 MHz, the output phase lag is 1.8&deg; 
 - As a fraction of the period (1 &mu;s) it's 0.005 hence, it's a time lag of 5 ns.

 - At 100 kHz, the phase lag is 0.18&deg; but, it's still a time lag of 5 ns

Given that I've modelled 1 metre lengths of capacitance and inductance, the equivalent velocity of propagation has to be 200 million metres per second. It's just the inverse of the time lag.

A simulator is great as a demonstration but, a formula for the phase angle is needed so that we know algebraically what the dependencies are. It's a simple 2nd order low pass filter and, if you went through the derivation (omitted to keep the answer shorter) you find that the phase angle response is this: -

$$\text{Phase lag} = \arctan\left(\dfrac{2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}{1 - \dfrac{\omega^2}{\omega_n^2}}\right)$$

Then because we are considering situations where \$\omega\$ is a lot smaller than \$\omega_n\$ we can make simplifications:

 - The arctan of a smaller number = the small number
 - The denominator equals 1

$$\text{Phase lag} = {2\zeta\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$

But we can also determine \$\zeta\$ for the circuit. [Wikipedia RLC circuits](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Theory/RLC_Circuits#Damping_Factor) shows it is this: -

![Image_alt_text](https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/hm38mlmadwihim4yl5jbrudee5i3)

And, because we know that R is \$Z_0\$ \$\left(\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\right)\$, \$\zeta\$ must equal 0.5. The phase lag now becomes: -

$$\text{Phase lag} = {\dfrac{\omega}{\omega_n}}$$

If we divide the phase lag by \$\omega\$ we get the time lag: -

$$\text{Time lag} = \dfrac{1}{\omega_n} = \sqrt{LC}$$

And, the velocity of propagation is the reciprocal of the time lag (recalling that the time lag was for a 1 metre length of the modelled cable): -

$$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{LC}}$$

Nearly there! 

$$$$

Right at the start I mentioned coaxial cable and its inductance and capacitance per unit length. The formulas are: -

$$L = \dfrac{\mu}{2\pi}\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)$$

Taken from [Inductance of a Coaxial Structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/07%3A_Magnetostatics/7.14%3A_Inductance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure#:~:text=Below%20we%20shall%20find%20the,flux%20to%20the%20source%20current.)

$$C = \dfrac{2\pi\epsilon}{\ln\left(\dfrac{b}{a}\right)}$$

Taken from [Capacitance of a coaxial structure](https://eng.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electrical_Engineering/Electro-Optics/Book%3A_Electromagnetics_I_(Ellingson)/05%3A_Electrostatics/5.24%3A_Capacitance_of_a_Coaxial_Structure)

$$$$

If we multiply L and C we get  \$\epsilon\cdot\mu\$  hence,

$$\text{Velocity of propagation} = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{\epsilon\cdot\mu}}$$