Communities

Writing
Writing
Codidact Meta
Codidact Meta
The Great Outdoors
The Great Outdoors
Photography & Video
Photography & Video
Scientific Speculation
Scientific Speculation
Cooking
Cooking
Electrical Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Judaism
Judaism
Languages & Linguistics
Languages & Linguistics
Software Development
Software Development
Mathematics
Mathematics
Christianity
Christianity
Code Golf
Code Golf
Music
Music
Physics
Physics
Linux Systems
Linux Systems
Power Users
Power Users
Tabletop RPGs
Tabletop RPGs
Community Proposals
Community Proposals
tag:snake search within a tag
answers:0 unanswered questions
user:xxxx search by author id
score:0.5 posts with 0.5+ score
"snake oil" exact phrase
votes:4 posts with 4+ votes
created:<1w created < 1 week ago
post_type:xxxx type of post
Search help
Notifications
Mark all as read See all your notifications »
Q&A

Comments on Why Ib=const. for BJT output characteristics Ic=f(Vce)

Parent

Why Ib=const. for BJT output characteristics Ic=f(Vce)

+4
−0

Introduction: In some books and other technical papers (also from universities) it is - surprisingly - still claimed that the bipolar transistor (BJT) would be a current-controlled element. This is simply stated - without any explanation or proof (which I think is impossible).

But of course, the other representation (voltage-controlled) can also be found in many knowledge sources - just as it is considered in the SPICE models.

For me and also for many students this is an unsatisfactory situation. Therefore, I consider the distinction (current vs. voltage-control) to be very important to avoid contradictions between theory and practice. Because many circuits and observable effects can only be explained with voltage control Ic=f(Vbe).

As one argument pro current control often the output characteristic Ic=f(Vce) is referred to, where the base current Ib is considered as a fixed parameter (Ib=const). And - as a matter of fact: Although the collector current Ic is determined by the voltage Vbe, the characteristic curves Ic=f(Vce) are practically always given only for different (fixed) base currents Ib.

My Question: Why ?

EDIT: In response to Elliot Alderson`s comment I enclose a short contribution from the great Barrie Gilbert.

Image alt text

History
Why does this post require attention from curators or moderators?
You might want to add some details to your flag.
Why should this post be closed?

1 comment thread

General comments (1 comment)
Post
+4
−0

Getting into wars about whether something is current controlled or voltage controlled is pointless. In most cases, there is some of both going on. Which "one" to call it then has more to do with personal biases than physics.

However, the real answer is that we do electrical engineering here. Models of how a bipolar transistor work in our context are for helping us understand transistors for the purpose of using them in circuits. The underlying physics may provide insights, but in the end, it is ultimately irrelevant.

All explanations that go into details of holes, electrons, depletion regions, carrier diffusion, and the like, miss the point. What we are interested in is what a transistor does largely as a black box.

For designing circuits, the first model of a BJT is

    A little B-E current allows a lot of C-E current.

Followed closely by

    B-E looks like a diode.

which also means that

    The B-E voltage is about one diode drop during normal "on" operation.

and there is also

    The C-E voltage is about 200 mV in saturation, more when the current is "high".

I've been designing circuits professionally for decades, and I can tell you that the above four simple guidelines get you quite a long way. That's usually good enough for conceiving of the overall circuit topology. Once you get into details, you make sure to select a transistor that can withstand your maximum voltage, maximum collector current, power dissipation, make sure the gain is enough, etc. I'm not trying to minimize those, but they are details in the overall scheme of designing circuits.

Even when you do look under the hood, it is still quite reasonable to think of BJTs as current-driven. You try to move charges from the emitter to the base (create a base current). However, most of those charges that get into the base region get swept to the collector before they can come out the base lead. Those "charges swept to the collector" are a current. What this says is that to get a certain base current, you end up with lots more collector current (when the device is properly biased).

If you want to think of a BJT as voltage-controlled, that's fine. You can argue the physics both ways, since its not black and white. However, for the purpose of circuit design, the current-controlled model of a BJT is a lot more useful in my experience.

Question: Are there further arguments for publishing the output characteristics for Ib=const. and not for Vbe=const.

In most circuits, Ib is what we are varying. That's the signal. Vbe comes along for the ride, and usually doesn't vary much, and the variations aren't usually relevant.


Current is always the result of a voltage, not vice versa. We need an E-field to enable movement of charges (which we call "current"). Am I wrong?

Yes, and pointless. This is just the high tech version of the chicken versus egg argument.

An E-field causes a force on charges, but it takes displaced charges to cause an E-field. You can keep going round and round about which comes first, but it's all pointless. It doesn't help in designing circuits nor in understanding the physics.

There are also other ways to move charges than due to an E-field, like a changing magnetic field or physically moving charged objects. Transformers and the alternator in your car work on the first principle, and Van De Graaff and Kelvin generators on the second. Moving charged objects is also apparently how the large E-fields that cause lightning arise.

Again though, this is all pointless bickering that distracts from understanding the underlying physics, and how to use it to design circuits.

History
Why does this post require attention from curators or moderators?
You might want to add some details to your flag.

1 comment thread

General comments (10 comments)
General comments
Circuit fantasist‭ wrote about 4 years ago · edited about 4 years ago

Incredibly beautifully written ... it was a real pleasure for me to read it. I am not a professional circuit designer but the observations I have from my practical experience and a lot of reasoning make me support this opinion. To avoid the "war" between current and voltage, I would offer the following compromise formulation of what we do in this arrangement: here we set the voltage across the base-emitter junction by passing an appropriate current through it ("golden rule 1" in my answer).

Skipping 1 deleted comment.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote about 4 years ago

I completely support your observations about the difference between the physical and circuit view. Circuits need rather a kind of a "functional" than physical view. To understand circuits, we need to imagine what and how active devices do what they do... we have to imagine the circuit operation. It is interesting that basic circuit ideas and tricks are not only electrical; they are more general and can be seen in the non-electrical world around us.

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

My fault: I have tried to make a clear distinction between (a) practical aspects and (b) physical effects. It seems I did not sucseed. Many good books and many publications from leading US-universities have convinced me that the BJT is voltage-controlled. But that was not my question here (just an introduction to the question). My only question was related to the output characteristics Ic=f(Vce) - why Ib=const. and not Vbe=const.

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

@Circuit fantasist. "Compromise formulation": "...set the voltage across the base-emitter junction by passing an appropriate current through it". So - voltage results from current? What then is the role of the voltage divider at the base (less-resistive as possible/allowed)?

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

@Olin Lathrop. Sorry, but another comment is unavoidable: (Quote) "You can argue the physics both ways, since its not black and white." Both ways? I rather think that each observable physical effect has exactly one cause which clearly can be identified. Exception: Basic natural laws like gravity etc. In electronics: Current is always the result of a voltage, not vice versa. We need an E-field to enable movement of charges (which we call "current"). Am I wrong?

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

Here is a simple example which can explain my view regarding theory and practice: For finding the voltage across one of the resistors as part of a voltage divider we assume that the current I produces a voltage corresponding to V=I*R. This works always fine. But it is not in accordance with theory. The current I does not "produce" this voltage. In contrary - I is the result of the existing voltage (resp. the E-field within the part).

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

@Olin L. Sorry, but one last comment (question): Since there are some points in your answer which I cannot agree upon (more or less: fundamental insights), I like to ask you if I may contact you by email? Could be an interesting exchange of facts and opinions ...

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote about 4 years ago

I think that really, voltage is the cause and current is the effect... the voltage causes the current. Figuratively speaking, we can think of the voltage source as of a motor that drives the load through an "electrical transmission" (current).

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

(Quote): "However, for the purpose of circuit design, the current-controlled model of a BJT is a lot more useful in my experience." My answer: There is not a single circuit which can be explained exclusively with current-control only. But in contrarty: There are many circuits which work (and can be explained) with V-control only. (Quote):"Vbe comes along for the ride, ...and the variations aren't usually relevant." Sorry to say - but this is simply wrong! Ask R.A. Pease "Whats all the Vbe-stuff"

LvW‭ wrote about 4 years ago

I'm sorry that I had to say this here so clearly, but I think that false information in a serious forum should not remain unchallenged.