Communities

Writing
Writing
Codidact Meta
Codidact Meta
The Great Outdoors
The Great Outdoors
Photography & Video
Photography & Video
Scientific Speculation
Scientific Speculation
Cooking
Cooking
Electrical Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Judaism
Judaism
Languages & Linguistics
Languages & Linguistics
Software Development
Software Development
Mathematics
Mathematics
Christianity
Christianity
Code Golf
Code Golf
Music
Music
Physics
Physics
Linux Systems
Linux Systems
Power Users
Power Users
Tabletop RPGs
Tabletop RPGs
Community Proposals
Community Proposals
tag:snake search within a tag
answers:0 unanswered questions
user:xxxx search by author id
score:0.5 posts with 0.5+ score
"snake oil" exact phrase
votes:4 posts with 4+ votes
created:<1w created < 1 week ago
post_type:xxxx type of post
Search help
Notifications
Mark all as read See all your notifications »
Q&A

Comments on Ceramic capacitor "memory" effect?

Post

Ceramic capacitor "memory" effect?

+5
−0

I have run into an interesting phenomenon related to ceramic capacitors. This question is part of the effort to understand the issue, and eventually work around it. But first, some background of this particular situation is required.

Device background

I have designed a high-accuracy 32-channel ohmmeter. It is intended for an industrial application to measure the outputs of sensors that present a variable resistance in response to what they are measuring.

The things being measured change relatively slowly, like temperature and liquid levels in tanks. Several seconds of response time to settle within the noise floor is acceptable.

Accuracy is important, more than your typical ohmmeter. Ideally we'd like to be off by no more than 1 Ω over the working range of about 100 Ω to 40 kΩ. That's 25 PPM at the high end, or over 15 bits.

Here is a simplified schematic of one resistance input channel:

R1 is a low-drift resistor. The voltage reference for the A/D is 2/3 of the 5V line created with a voltage divider. The measurement is therefore ratiometric, and the absolute value of the 5 V line is not critical.

The buffered signal from the opamp directly drives the input of a delta-sigma A/D run continuously at roughly 60 Hz rate. R2 and C1 are intended to eliminate high frequencies (like radio station pickups) that are out of range for the opamp, and to attenuate frequencies above 30 Hz to prevent aliasing artifacts. More filtering is done in firmware, but that's not the point here.

The three main sources of error are the absolute value of R1, any offset voltage caused by the opamp or inherent in the A/D input, and the actual divide ratio from the 5 V line to the A/D reference. The strategy is measure each channel in production, save calibration constants, and have the firmware apply calibration correction each A/D reading.

Everything I've described so far is working quite well, exactly as intended.

Calibration

To calibrate each channel, measurements are taken with three highly accurate resistors connected to the input. These are chosen to result in A/D readings near middle and ends of its range. The results go into software that computes the actual values of R1, offset voltage, and A/D reference divide ratio. These are then used to create constants used by the firmware to correct each A/D reading.

Again, all this is working very nicely, exactly as intended.

Settling time

The software that gets the readings resulting from the reference resistances has to make sure the readings are fully settled. To do this, it gets sequences of 64 readings averaged together from the firmware, applies a little low-pass filtering, and waits for the result to reverse its direction of drift. That means that the values have settled to where the random noise makes them go up and down. 256 new readings are then averaged to be the official settled A/D value for the particular reference resistance.

The time constant of the filter caused by C1 should be 20 to 33 ms over the range of 0 to 40 kΩ being measured. Even at 33 ms, the signal should settle to one part in 1 M by 470 ms (14 time constants). In other words, settling to a new value shouldn't take more than half a second.

The software that looks for the filtered value going up and down (as opposed to converging in a single direction) does apply some low-pass filtering. This was necessary to prevent declaring the readings settled too soon. Without filtering, the blocks of 64 averaged readings could still be seen to drift in one direction overall, even if individual averages were bouncing up and down a little.

The software applies three poles of LPF with a filter fraction of 0.6 each pole. That settles to one part in 1 M in 21 seconds, which is well below the noise floor.

What the ... ?

I was expecting 10 to 20 seconds to get fully settled readings. It seems to take a bit more than that for high resistances (high end of A/D range). Something isn't quite right here, but it's not way off.

However, the really perplexing part is that it takes about a minute for low resistances like 100 Ω to settle according to the method described above. Nothing in the system should react anywhere near that slowly.

Capacitor makes a difference

After looking into thermal effects and not finding anything, I started wondering about the capacitor. Is it possible that a non-ideal characteristic of the capacitor causes some charges to get "stuck" at low voltages that then drain out slowly?

The original capacitors were generic ceramic 0805 surface mount. I didn't specify anything special because the low-pass filter rolloff frequency caused by C1 isn't critical. I didn't think the capacitor details mattered much as long as the leakage was low. Any ceramic seemed like it would do.

However, swapping in different capacitors changes things, even with all being 1 µF. I found an old 1 µF cap of unknown dielectric that is maybe 15 x 10 x 4 mm in a glazed ceramic package. With it, 100 Ω settles in about 30 seconds, or about twice as fast as the original. Other capacitors resulted in different values.

Finally, the question

What is going on here? Do some dielectrics release the last few PPM of charges more slowly? If so, what dielectrics do and don't? What kind of capacitor should I use?

I tried searches like "ceramic capacitor memory effect", but didn't find anything.

History
Why does this post require attention from curators or moderators?
You might want to add some details to your flag.
Why should this post be closed?

5 comment threads

Near 60 Hz. Electromagnetic cuppling with power line frequenzy? (3 comments)
Software? (2 comments)
Could this be a manifestation of voltage coefficient in ceramic capacitors? (1 comment)
Another possible reason (1 comment)
Suggestion of possible reason. (1 comment)
Near 60 Hz. Electromagnetic cuppling with power line frequenzy?
H_H‭ wrote about 1 year ago

You said "roughly 60 Hz rate". How near is it at 60Hz and what is power line frequency in your country?

Is it possible that some couplings to the power line? I know you said you filter things about 30 Hz, but that filter is probably still leaking some amounts of higher frequencies signals through, especially since you care about such small changes.

Olin Lathrop‭ wrote about 1 year ago

The analog filter rolloff is around 9 Hz, so 60 Hz should be about 16 dB down. Power frequency here in North America is 60 Hz. There will always be some power line noise, but shouldn't effect settling time.

H_H‭ wrote about 1 year ago · edited about 1 year ago

That assumes couplings is before the filter and there is no coupling after the filter.

This is very likely not the case, but just to show that this is theoretically possible that power noise affects settling time: Lets assume there is a coupling of a 60 Hz signal, to make the Gedankenexperiment simple lets say this interfering signal is a pure sine at exactly 60 Hz, without any higher harmonics. Lets also assume you measure it at a rate of exactly 60.05 Hz and the first measurement is taken when the interfering signal is 0 V. That means for the next 5 second, or 300 measurements, the measured value would go down (aliasing, you would measure a sine with a period of 20 second).

But extremely unlikely that this is your problem.