Communities

Writing
Writing
Codidact Meta
Codidact Meta
The Great Outdoors
The Great Outdoors
Photography & Video
Photography & Video
Scientific Speculation
Scientific Speculation
Cooking
Cooking
Electrical Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Judaism
Judaism
Languages & Linguistics
Languages & Linguistics
Software Development
Software Development
Mathematics
Mathematics
Christianity
Christianity
Code Golf
Code Golf
Music
Music
Physics
Physics
Linux Systems
Linux Systems
Power Users
Power Users
Tabletop RPGs
Tabletop RPGs
Community Proposals
Community Proposals
tag:snake search within a tag
answers:0 unanswered questions
user:xxxx search by author id
score:0.5 posts with 0.5+ score
"snake oil" exact phrase
votes:4 posts with 4+ votes
created:<1w created < 1 week ago
post_type:xxxx type of post
Search help
Notifications
Mark all as read See all your notifications »
Papers

Comments on 3-LED voltage indicator (an inventor's story)

Post

3-LED voltage indicator (an inventor's story)

+3
−0

Goals and objectives

Motivation. Having shown how a 1-transistor circuit can be invented, now I will demonstrate how we can invent another more complex 2-transistor circuit. As before, my goals are two - specific (the very 2-transistor circuit) and general (the technology of invention). With my inventor's story, I just want to encourage circuit beginners to be creative by showing them another possible path to invention.

Background. My story is based on three circuit concepts:

  • voltage divider acting as a reference voltage source

  • BJT acting as a comparator and switch

  • LED acting as a voltage stabilizer and diode switch (current steering)

They are known separately... but the way they are combined here gives an inventive solution.

History. This idea came to me in the early 80's when, in addition to an electronics hobbyist, I was an amateur photographer. I wanted to make a flash light meter with an LED indication for my new camera.

In this circuit, I converted the light to voltage by an op-amp circuit. Then, I memorize the voltage pulse by something like a sample & hold circuit. Finally, I indicated the voltage by two LEDs connected in the negative feedabck loop to show when the light (voltage) was above or below the desired level. But I wanted to have a third (middle) LED, which would light up when the level was desired. Thus, the LED light would crossfade and an analog indicator would be obtained.

The problem was how to make the middle diode go out when one of the two end diodes started to light up. In other similar circuits, an additional transistor was used for this purpose... but I did not like it.

And then I accidentally saw in a book this trick of connecting two LEDs with different threshold voltages in parallel... and immediately applied it in my circuit. I found it very interesting; I abandoned photography and started experimenting with various circuits of LED voltage indicators. Finally, I obtained two patents...

Presentation. Below I have reproduced, step by step, the path I have taken in the form of an imaginary inventive scenario. This is a good example of how an inventor thinks when inventing.

I have illustrated each step by a conceptual circuit diagram where the invisible electrical quantities are visualized. The voltages are represented by vertical segments (voltage bars) with proportional height in red. They are summed (subtracted) geometrically according to KVL. This clearly shows the relationship between voltages. The set of voltage bars on the circuit diagram can be considered as a snapshot of the voltage relief. For the purposes of this qualitative presentation, numerical values ​​are not given because they are not significant here.

The current paths are shown by closed lines (current loops) in green that start from the positive terminal of the power supply and end at its negative terminal. The current magnitude can be shown by the line thickness but here, for simplicity, this technique is not used.

In the final Step 7, I have drawn the circuit diagram in its conventional compact form - no voltage bars, no current loops, no colors, no unusually situated elements... So you have a choice - if you do not like step-by-step invention and visualization, you can jump directly to Fig. 7.

“Inventing” the circuit

1. Obtaining the threshold voltage VTR. To make a threshold voltage circuit, first at all, we need to set the threshold (reference) voltage. The simplest way to obtain it is by the ubiquitous voltage divider. Let's initially choose VREF = VCC/2 (or zero, in the case of a dual power supply). This means to connect two equal resistors R1 = R2 in series - Fig. 1. The voltage drops across them are equal as well - VR1 = VR2, and we take the lower grounded voltage in point A.

Step 1

Fig. 1. "Producing" a reference voltage by a voltage divider R1-R2 and input voltage VIN by a potentiometer P.

In a similar way - by the potentiometer P, we can emulate the previous stage producing the input voltage VIN (the light-to-voltage converter from my story above). Note the potentiometer and the power supply do not belong to the invented circuit that is outlined in yellow.

2. Inserting the first (middle) diode. Now we have to supply the first (middle) LED D1. Let's insert it between the two resistors - Fig. 2, to "lift" its voltage drop VD1 by the threshold voltage VIN/2. By choosing the sum of their resistance, we set the desired current through D1.

Step 2

Fig. 2. Including the first (middle) LED D1.

Now we have two slightly differing reference voltages - below D1 (point B) and above D1 (point A).

3. Building the upper comparator. Now, we have to compare the input voltage with the reference voltages and connect the according end LED depending on the difference. Both can be implemented by a bipolar junction transistor.

Let's begin with the upper comparator. We can make it by an NPN transistor (T1) by connecting its emitter to the lower reference voltage (point B) and its base to the input voltage (through a resistor RB) - Fig. 3. But it should switch LED D3; so let's insert D3 in the emitter. Its forward voltage and T1 base-emitter voltage VBE will be added to the lower reference voltage VR2 thus forming the high threshold voltage.

Step 3

Fig. 3. Building the upper comparator

When the input voltage exceeds the high threshold, T1 begins conducting and D3 will begin lighting up. But D1 should start to go out. How do we do it?

Here chance helps us - it turns out that D1 goes out on its own. But why?

D1 is a green LED with forward voltage VD1 = 2.5 V and D3 is a red LED with forward voltage VD3 = 1.8 V. They are connected in parallel; so the current is diverted (steered) from D1 to D3... and they cross fade.

So, our chance was that we connected, by accident, an LED with lower forward voltage (red) in parallel to an LED with higher voltage (green). If we had done the opposite, the trick would not have worked...

4. Building the lower comparator. Now we should use a PNP transistor (T2) by connecting its emitter to the higher reference voltage (point A) and its base to the input voltage - Fig. 4. It should switch LED D2; so we insert D2 in the emitter. Its forward voltage and T2 base-emitter voltage VBE will be subtracted from the higher reference voltage (Vcc - VR1) thus forming the low threshold voltage.

Step 4

Fig. 4. Building the lower comparator.

Now, when the input voltage drops below the low threshold, T2 begins connecting D2 in parallel to D1. The current is steered from D1 to D2 and the LEDs cross fade.

5. Combining the two comparators. Now it remains only to combine the two comparators in one window comparator - Fig. 5.

Step 5

Fig. 5. Combining the two comparators in one.

6. Simplifying the circuit. But we do not like these cross-connections. What happens if we join them to make the circuit tidier? Let's try - Fig. 6.

Step 6

Fig. 6. The circuit can be simplified by joining the emitters.

The result is really a more beautiful circuit. All that remains is it to work:) And it really works... and even better! Let's see why.

In addition to the previous version, now when the transistor T1/T2 connects the end LED D3/D2 in parallel to the middle LED D1, it shunts the other end LED D2/D3 and reliably turns it off.

7. Usually drawn circuit. Finally, let's remove all these visual aids and draw the circuit in the conventional way - Fig. 7.

Step 7

Fig. 7. The circuit is drawn without visualized electrical quantities (a dual-supplied version).

How neat it is... small, beautiful and symmetrical!

Properties

Look at the central part of the circuit including the two transistors T1, T2 and three LEDs D1-D3. This structure has unique properties:

Constant voltage. Regardless of the state in which it is (switched on D1, D2 or D3... or an intermediate state), the voltage drop across it (between points A and B) changes slightly. The whole structure behaves like one diode (LED).

Constant current. Also, regardless of the state, the whole current through this structure changes slightly. It only diverts between diodes (as they say, it is "steered" between LEDs). This phenomenon is known as current steering and is usually associated with the differential (long-tailed) pair.

Mobility. Figuratively speaking, this structure is "stretched" through two resistors (pull-up R1 and pull-down R2) between the supply rails. If we change simultaneously and in opposite directions their resistances, we can "move" this "diode" up to V+ and down to ground or V- without changing the voltage across it (VA - VB) and the current through it.

Bridge circuit. If the voltage indicator is driven by a potentiometer (as it is here), the whole circuit (including the potentiometer) can be considered as a Wheatstone bridge with a zero indicator. It consists of the two potentiometer half resistances and resistors R1 and R2. The central part serves as the zero voltage indicator.

Improvements

Dual-supplied version. In addition, we can draw its dual-supplied version - Fig. 7 above.

Grounded version. If this is a zero voltage indicator, we can ground the common emitter point (shown in light gray in Fig. 7). Thus the emitter voltages will be firmly fixed.

Direct control. The circuit can be further simplified by removing RB (when the emitters are not grounded). This will make it even more sensitive. There is no danger of damage to the transistors because resistors R1 and R2 limit the base currents. Only the circuit input resistance will be lower.

Identical LEDs. The circuit can be implemented by identical LEDs (with equal VF). In this case, we can increase D1 forward voltage by inserting an ordinary Si diode in series.

Narrow dead zone. The width of the "dead zone" is 2VBE. It can be narrowed by applying a bias voltage as @TonyStewart suggests‭ in his attractive FS simulation:

LED indicator - simulation

Fig. 8. LED indicator - simulation (by @TonyStewart)

The bias voltage is created across diodes connected in parallel to base-emitter junctions. This is a well-known bias technique widely used in output stages of power amplifiers.

Wide dead zone. Conversely, we can expand the "dead zone" (if necessary) by inserting diodes in series to the base-emitter junctions.

See also

A similar Wikibooks story (written by my students in 2010)

History
Why does this post require attention from curators or moderators?
You might want to add some details to your flag.

1 comment thread

General comments (24 comments)
General comments
Olin Lathrop‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

All your schematics except Fig 7 are basically unreadable again. You seem to think all those lines "show" things, but they really clutter up the drawing and make it hard to see the circuit under all that mess.

tlfong01‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

Yes, I very much agree with @Olin Lathrop that the schematics except Fig 7 is unthinkable, at least for me IQ97. Let me quickly read the story once and see it can improve my IQ a bit.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

@Olin Lathrop‭, I need to think a lot before I answer you because I am quite surprised and I can not react. I just managed to ask myself the simple question, "Why are we so different?"

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

@tlfong01‭, to understand circuits you need more imagination than IQ (said Einstein)...

tlfong01‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

I am back. It took me about 15 minutes (yes, I am using my kitchen timer. :)) (1) I think I understand every schematic very well. (2) I think I understand every sentence very well. (3) I think I understand the invention objective very well (When I learned photography ages ago, I did have a light meter to help setting exposure value (EV). (4) I very much agree that "How neat it is... beautiful and symmetrical!" / to continue, ...

tlfong01‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

Now what I don't agree: (5) I don't agree with the following: "I converted the light to voltage by an op-amp circuit." (You need something called a “photo diode”.) (6) I don't agree that any imaginary invention story should be told or published before verification by results.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

@tlfong01‭, the light-to-voltage converter is another circuit that stays before this. But it does not belong to this topic ("analog LED voltage indicator"). I have only mentioned it to make the story more human-friendly...

coquelicot‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

@circuit fantasist. What makes this paper unclear is that you have replaced the light signal (to be compared) by a pot, probably for the sake of visualization? It took me a while to understand that, and the confusion with the "references voltage". My suggestion is: remove the pot and put a single entry labeled "light intensity signal". If you cannot do that, at least, make it very explicit. I tend to agree with others that your schematics are somewhat messy (except the last one). /continued

coquelicot‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

Basically, it could be a good article and I find it interesting, more interesting than your previous articles. The only reasons I've not upvoted it are explained just above.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

@coquelicot‭, To manually test a voltage-controlled analog circuit, you need a variable voltage source... but imagine you have only a constant one. Then, what else to use if not a simple potentiometer? I have outlined the studied circuit in yellow; the potentiometer (input voltage source) and the power supply are outside it... Then, what else to use to obtain a reference voltage (0 ÷ Vcc) if not a voltage divider (R1, R2)?

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

The difference between the potentiometer and the "single entry labeled 'light intensity signal'" is that the potentiometer is a real device... and the reader can see the path where the input current flows. For the purposes of understanding, it is very important to see where currents flow. That is why, I represent them by completely drawn loops in green (like flowing water). It is no less important to "see" the voltage drops across elements. That is why, I represent them by voltage bars in red.

coquelicot‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

@Circuit fantasist. I do not disagree that the pot is a good way of testing your circuit, but it is a fact that this makes your article difficult to follow. It took me a while to understand what the circuit is supposed to do!!!! You have only given a short hint as a historical account at the beginning, and suddenly a pot appears from nowhere in your circuit: that's confusing and difficult to follow. /continued

coquelicot‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

I am not against the pot, but I think this should be written somewhere, preferably inside the schematic, something like: "light intensity signal simulated with potentiometer P" near the pot. Regarding the schematics, I think adding the current loops in green is more than sufficient. The voltage drops in red kill the reader.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

@coquelicot‭, I managed to find the light-to-voltage converting circuit scratched on a yellowed sheet of paper in 1982. I uploaded it especially for you:) I also added more explanations to make the text more clear. Just to note that these are details you should not stare at. Evaluate the inventive idea and the way it is presented in comparison to the millions of web pages presenting the same thing in the same way ...

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

@tlfong01‭, I have uploaded the circuit of the light-to-voltage converter also for you - https://electrical.codidact.com/uploads/Ky66QamLX19NTN8CKxCnExUF. I had to dig a lot in my old archives to find it (that was 40 years ago). It is also interesting in itself but it has no direct connection with what I want to show here... The only problem is that you will have to learn a few letters and words from the Cyrillic alphabet:)

coquelicot‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

@circuit fantasist. After your updates, I now like this article.

TonyStewart‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

TL;DR but very well-prepared WTG and image readability can be improved with Irfanview/Gimp with contrast+brightness

TonyStewart‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

For professional development, it is important to define the performance and assumptions desired before starting the design. I have some doubts on this design but then there are missing assumed values

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

@TonyStewart‭, Thanks for the advice. Indeed, handmade drawings are not the usual technique today. I use them because they give me more freedom in exposing my ideas. In the 90s, I was using Corel Draw and in the 00s, Macromedia Flash animator. Then I started drawing schematics on a white board and white sheets of paper... and finally on squared paper... and so on until now… Maybe I need some smart software that converts bitmaps into vector graphics and corrects lines and symbols.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

Regarding your second comment, my goal is to show how the inventor thinks when a new idea conceives in his/her mind. This initial stage of the circuit development is the most obscure and least considered. For this purpose, I use a specific circuit in which there is some trick and therefore it was recognized as an invention. My goal is not to calculate and select the exact electronic components with appropriate characteristics. That is why, the circuit diagram is conceptual with generic elements.

Skipping 1 deleted comment.

TonyStewart‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

This article has value to share your method that works for you. I learned 45 yrs ago when we had no tools except paper and pencil and experiments. So it worked for me too. But now I can do so much more using Falstad's simulators, that its amazing as long as you know to make ideal parts real C+ESR, L+DCR, stray C Add R to drv. and make changes to Beta or RLC values or design active/passive filters, parameters for a custom diode model to change LED Vf and colour https://tinyurl.com/y6qevv93

TonyStewart‭ wrote almost 4 years ago

have fun learning.. maybe I'll make a Youtube or Zoom or any forum to train a group if there is interest. But I need motivation to do this.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

@TonyStewart‭, Yes... but these wonders of today are only means that cannot replace the need for thinking. Because it is very unfortunate and comical to master them perfectly but not to understand what the ideas behind circuits are... and this is a ubiquitous phenomenon today. And it leads to this resentment that I have encountered in circuit forums, especially in Wikipedia and StackExchange.

Circuit fantasist‭ wrote almost 4 years ago · edited almost 4 years ago

Ooooo ... now I just saw the simulation. Really very attractive and beautiful ... Thanks for the effort ... maybe it will help me to see something new in the solution. I like your idea to show two simultaneously acting versions - with and without bias. This shows the effect of bias. Do you agree with my last edit? If not, you can suggest another edit...